logo-dw

Go Back   Dreamweaver Club Forums > Dreamweaver forums > Dreamweaver General
Register FAQ Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-20-2005, 08:11 PM   #1
domedia
Administrator
domedia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,730
Default

This is the thread for comment and feedback on Jamie Harrop's article To Dream, Weave, or Read The Front Page?
We all love Dreamweaver so let's keep the posts civil and constructive
domedia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2005, 08:37 PM   #2
gmcrone
gmcrone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 519
Default

While I agree with much of what was said, their are other advantages to using a WYSIWYG editor.

1. Site organization
2. Dynamic site creation (database based information)

These are 2 areas where using a WYSIWYG editor shine.

I do strongly agree however that many of today's wannabee webmasters do not learn the fundamentals first. You have to know HTML/CSS and how it works before ever writing one bit of code.

While the 2 mentioned editors are not perfect, they have come along way in adhering to standards and accessibilty guidelines.
Dreamweaver for example does have extensions available for accessiblity checking within the program.

Since my company primarily does intranets I also have to look at user updating of pages. When a client of mine has their network based on Microsoft servers, it is much easier for me to write their intranet using Front Page and DWT's (templates). This way they can update their pages without messing up the underlying structure.
The same can be done on some of my other sites using Unix/Linux servers. I use Dreamweaver to create the structure and have them use Contribute to update their pages.

Finally, you have to remember that an editor is just a tool.
You have to know how to write your code whether it be HTML, CSS, PHP or whatever.
If you don't, no editor can help you.

Mike...
gmcrone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2005, 12:03 AM   #3
ranjan
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 405
Default

Why I use and will continue to use Dreamweaver

Firstly I think that an editor is only as good (or bad) as the coder using it. Doesnt matter which editor, it could be Notepad ($0) or Dreamweaver ($400) you can only use your editor as well as you know (or dont) your code. So the authors rant of dreamweaver not producing standard based code doesnot hold water for me.

I am fairly good at coding. So then why did I spend 400 bucks on an editor when i could have used notepad. Here are some of the reasons:

1. Time saved has already paid me back my cost

Lets say I have a data table on my webpage (I said DATA table) 5 x 5, Ok here i begin handcoding and timing myself

Code:
 
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>HTML </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><<span style='color:blue'>table</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>td</span>><<span style='color:blue'>/td</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/tr</span>>
<<span style='color:blue'>/table</span>></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
It took me 38 seconds, And yes I did copy and paste the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th row. Dreamweaver did that in 2 secs, time saved 36 secs in a single table. Now I do not want to get into a complete math lesson like the author did, but that saving in time alone in tables will payback my investment just doing my first project in dreamweaver.

Hey I may well have made a typing mistake in the table code above, dreamweaver will NOT. Also lets not forget that the above was a straight forward table without rowspans or columnspans.

2. Code Library Building

Dreamweaver allows me to use snippets, write extensions, templates and dreamweaver library items to build my reusable code library. A good coder always has a good organized reusable code library. Dreamweaver makes the task simple for me. By the way reusable code also saves me time (see 1)

3. Code scanning

A good code debugger should be able to scan code fast (to be any good at his job). Dreamweavers color coding of html/javascript/asp/php/coldfusion etc makes this scanning process simple and fast. Not to forget features like code cleaning and source code formating features of dreamweaver.

4. W3C Standards Checks

I do not have to upload my file and then visit the W3C validator site to check my validations, its done for me by dreamweaver. Not only it catches the error but at the click of a button I reach the line the error is in and correct it right there.

5. Accessiblity checking

Section 508 built in, WCAG checker extensions available. See 4 for further details

6. Extensibility

I have already discussed some of dreamweavers extensibility feature in point 2 (code reuse). But I can just import lets say SVG DTD into dreamweaver and I have a brand new SVG editor to my disposal. any XML dtd can be imported into dreamweaver and dreamweaver uses the dtd for code hints. Extensibility features also allow me to say run winamp from within my dreamweaver

There are many more advantages that dreamweaver has, I am sure users here will vouvh for that and its free after just my first project on it. Not a bad investment, I must say...
ranjan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2005, 10:27 AM   #4
Jamieharrop
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1
Default

Firstly, by the username you may have guessed, I am Jamie Harrop, the author of the article.

I would like to thank Ove for taking interest in the article and offering to reprint it over here.

Also, thank you to Mike and ranjan for your comments.

I would like to address these comments that have been made so far, so, here goes.

Quote:
While I agree with much of what was said, their are other advantages to using a WYSIWYG editor.

1. Site organization
2. Dynamic site creation (database based information)
Now this is where I say my practical knowledge of WYSIWYG editors lacks compared to some people. Thanks for pointing these out Mike, I would love to say I will update the article with these added but, at the moment, it is been posted on way too many sites for me to contact one by one.

Quote:
While the 2 mentioned editors are not perfect, they have come along way in adhering to standards and accessibilty guidelines.
Dreamweaver for example does have extensions available for accessiblity checking within the program.
Hopefully it was noticeable that I touched upon DW's learning curve in adhering to standards and accessibility in the article. As for FP, I couldn't find anything to say it had done so, if anybody can come up with something please let us know.

Quote:
Since my company primarily does intranets I also have to look at user updating of pages. When a client of mine has their network based on Microsoft servers, it is much easier for me to write their intranet using Front Page and DWT's (templates). This way they can update their pages without messing up the underlying structure.
Now, I can't 100% understand how your company does everything with the Intranets but in my past experience, when it comes down to developing a Website they are a whole different boat than an Internet. In my experience you know exactly who your audience are with an Intranet and what software they have avaliable. If this is the case I wouldn't have any problems using a WYSIWYG editor (although, me being me I probably wouldn't due to my hatred of them).

Your turn ranjan, I would like to say you made some very convincing and valid points in your post.

Quote:
Firstly I think that an editor is only as good (or bad) as the coder using it.
Bang! You hit the nail right on the head with that. You are spot on, now, I believe DW and FP are two very different programs. In my experience of what I have seen, as I said in the article if the end user knows how to handle DW then it can be a very effective tool that abides by standards and accessibility issues. As for FP, from what I have seen by solely using the WYSIWYG interface the end user finds it impossible to abide by standards and accessibility due to FP's lack of knowledge in that area.

Your saving time theory is one I cannot argue with, you win hands down! That doesn't happen often, consider yourself lucky my friend.

Your Code Library Building point, again, I can't do much in terms of defending my views, what I can say again though is that it boils down to how much experience/skill the end user as with DW.

Code scanning... most text editors have the color coding feature. Handy isn't it?

W3C Standards Checks - Some flashy text editors come with w3c validator checks, I personally use Textpad which doesn't have this feature, but, it is possible.
Jamieharrop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2005, 09:47 PM   #5
mar0364
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26
Default

Well I started website development using notepad and then Homesite. I was forced to use FrontPage at a place of employment. I was not happy with it. I now use DW MX 2004 and use some extensions and server behaviors. It is a great site management tool and it writes fairly clean code. I can use a server behavior then go in and modify it to suit whatever my need may be. Try that with a darn FrontPage Bot!!

I do see your point. I think WYSIWIG editors are fine as long as you don't depend on them. I spend most of my time in code view.

Just because something is easy does not mean it is bad.
mar0364 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2005, 06:15 PM   #6
Creative Insanity
Banned
Creative Insanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: KiwiLand (stalk that far dj LOL)
Posts: 1,967
Default

Ok I read this rant and I for one do not agree with it.
My site is solely done in DW and so I took the challange and went to w3c and ran it through their validator and guess what!
One error. not tons. So I will have the left arm wrapped in tin foil please LOL
Quote:
<script language="JAVASCRIPT">

The attribute given above is required for an element that you've used, but you have omitted it. For instance, in most HTML and XHTML document types the "type" attribute is required on the "script" element and the "alt" attribute is required for the "img" element.

Typical values for type are type="text/css" for <style> and type="text/javascript" for <script>.
So boo hiss to w3c
Creative Insanity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 01:38 AM   #7
rafi147@hotmail.co.uk
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1
Thumbs up make design simpler

Hi..i agree with most of ranjan comment. As a complete newbie in this web design arena, dreamweaver no doubt had an huge impact in my learning on html. I took several months to type and produce a design in html whislt with dreamweaver that process only took me one whole day. Isn't that marvellous? 100 years ago, it probably took us 1 day to go to london by steam train from manchester, but now that journey had been cut down to few hours. And editor as ranjan mentioned indeed play the most important part on page building. Is that your Quote ranjan?

Quote:
Firstly I think that an editor is only as good (or bad) as the coder using it.
Overall from my point of view, dreamweaver had achieved its goal to make web designing simpler and quicker.
__________________
John
rafi147@hotmail.co.uk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 DreamweaverClub.com