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Octavius
10-17-2011, 11:19 AM
This is getting a bit frustrating, to say the least.

Please comment on my understanding so far on the various ways to create the layout for a web page.

1. Tables
Sounds logical to me and is pretty easy to do. However, this is now considered to be a "bad thing". I will accept this advise and move on to the next method.

2. Design in Photoshop
This is pretty easy once you get to know Photoshop. However, the FAQ here in this forum says this is a "bad thing". Again, I will accept this advise and move on to the next method.

3. Use Layers
Now it gets exciting. The layer concept is easy to understand and implement in DW. No coding is necessary. (To me, hand coding = bugs).
Create a layer, insert your image/text. Move the layer to wherever you want it on the page. Wonderful.
But here is the killer - view the page in a browser, zoom in and out and the stinking image doesn't stay relative to the rest of the page!
What stinking use is that!
Please tell me I'm missing something.
OK, the layers concept was too good to be true - let's move on.

4. CSS
I've googled this and all I have found is tutorials on coding. Aaaaagh! Run away!
DW has the Design mode - why can't I do something as basic as laying out the page in Design mode.

5. Use the templates
OK if you want a boring, corporate style.

6. Frames
I have not looked into this but I think this is now frowned upon as well.

7. Give up and make a pot of tea.

Please let loose and put me right.

Cheers

Corrosive
10-17-2011, 12:40 PM
7. Give up and make a pot of tea.



Thanks, I'll take mine white with one spoon of sugar please.

Corrosive
10-17-2011, 12:45 PM
Look, Design View is a point of reference and it can make certain jobs easier once you know what you are doing. You are never going to be able to drag and drop anywhere near a half-decent website in Design View without knowing some code. This is why, when Adobe bought DW from Macromedia (or took them over maybe), they changed the slant on DW. It is a development tool designed to improve workflow but some underlying knowledge is key.

Just like having a 3000 Digital SLR doesn't make you a photographer. You need to understand shutter speeds, exposure, composition and so on. Otherwise you have all the gear and no clue. Sorry, but that is where you are with DW right now.

The ONLY way to develop a good quality website is to learn what the code actually does.

domedia
10-17-2011, 01:21 PM
You have to read up on regular standard web standards. Your list is a mix of (some completely) different things, and many are not mutually exclusive.

d a v e
10-17-2011, 01:25 PM
some references http://www.w3schools.com/
http://www.htmldog.com
http://www.opera.com/company/education/curriculum/

http://www.cssbasics.com
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/html-css-beginners-guide/
http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/html-css-techniques/design-and-code-your-first -website-in-easy-to-understand-steps/

domedia
10-17-2011, 02:49 PM
The good thing Octavious, is that you seem pretty tech savvy. Once you get the basics of of front and code down, You'll never look back 8) I've seen a few people on this boards go from design view to front end code ninjas.

Octavius
10-17-2011, 09:32 PM
Thanks for the replies! This is most interesting.

Corrosive,
Are you saying that, in all these years, MacroMedia/Adobe couldn't come up with a grid system to allow users to plonk in graphics and text that would stay on the page if zoomed?
People apparently have been using tables for years to do this but now I've found that, just like layers, the tables are not relative to the page, ie they just fly off in every direction. Surely I'm doing something wrong here.

domedia,
To continue with Corrosive's analogy, using automatic mode gives a photo that is good to go 99% of the time, unless you are Ansel Adams. If you are stuck on the motorway in traffic would you like a manual or an automatic gearbox? It seems the Design mode in DW can be used to do everything (everything I need, anyways) except page layout.

Dave,
Many thanks for the links -all of them very decent. I have to decide now whether to jump into coding or conclude that you are all a bunch of geeks ganging up on me. :wink:

Let me ponder it awhile. Thanks again for posting - I hope I'm not coming across in a negative fashion. I'm just a bit bewildered.

Cheers!
PS. Corrosive, tea's made. Did you bring the shortbread?

edbr
10-18-2011, 04:47 AM
Many thanks for the links -all of them very decent. I have to decide now whether to jump into coding or conclude that you are all a bunch of geeks ganging up on me.
dont spoil out fun . design view like pirate code, more of a guide than a rule

Corrosive
10-18-2011, 07:29 AM
To continue with Corrosive's analogy, using automatic mode gives a photo that is good to go 99% of the time, unless you are Ansel Adams. If you are stuck on the motorway in traffic would you like a manual or an automatic gearbox? It seems the Design mode in DW can be used to do everything (everything I need, anyways) except page layout.


Not just shortbread... Caramel shortbread!

Time to get a little silly with the analogy if it helps. OK, you have an auto mode on a camera. But say you were pointing that camera at the floor. The camera is not going to say 'do you know you are pointing me at the floor and it's going to make a cr*p picture?' No, it's going to take the picture anyway with all its gizmos and settings. That's what I am driving at. The camera is only ever as good as the person wielding it. The same is true of Dreamweaver.

Example;

Your page has a main header that tells the reader what the page is about. You decide (for aesthetic reasons) that you want the text for this to be a few points bigger than the rest of the text and you want it in bold.

So you highlight the text in MX Design View and you select 'bold' and 22px size in the 'Properties Panel'. You end up with HTML something like this;

<span class="style1">Your page title</span>

and CSS like

.style1 {font-weight: bold; font-size: 22px;}

Now there is nothing wrong with that visually. It works fine. But what you have missed is the semantics of the HTML language (it has rules like any other language). In fact the main header on your page should be in a tag called 'h1'. So your html should be;

<h1>Your page title</h1>

and CSS

h1 {font-weight: bold; font-size: 22px;}

That makes more sense semantically because it tells the reader, search engines and so on that it is your page title.

So you have ended up with two different ways of achieving the same thing. The first where Dreamweaver (and your computer) have guessed what you mean and the second where you have understood the basics of markup/html and told it what you mean. Both look correct on the screen but only one is actually correct.

Does that make sense or am I waffling? Ever wonder why the 'Microsoft Office Assistant' was phased out as default? Yep, because it did more harm than good and cannot replace the common sense demonstrated by a free-thinking human being.

edbr
10-18-2011, 08:29 AM
analogies 'r'us :)

Corrosive
10-18-2011, 08:39 AM
You know me mate. I love a good analogy :)

domedia
10-18-2011, 01:28 PM
domedia,
To continue with Corrosive's analogy, using automatic mode gives a photo that is good to go 99% of the time, unless you are Ansel Adams. If you are stuck on the motorway in traffic would you like a manual or an automatic gearbox? It seems the Design mode in DW can be used to do everything (everything I need, anyways) except page layout.

Making web pages are immensely more complicated than learning how to operate a photo camera. An analogy is great initially to illustrate the problem, but taking it further has no value.

In my opinion there's only one way to make web pages, and that is using web standards and established good practices. There' really isn't much more to say about it.

The languages used for this is HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

DWcourse
10-18-2011, 08:24 PM
the common sense demonstrated by a free-thinking human being.
If only there were more of both of those.:)

Octavius
10-20-2011, 10:09 AM
Well, this has be educational for me - thanks for the insightful replies.

I'm going to jump into one of the tutorials that Dave provided on HTML - does this mean I change my diet to Chinese take-aways?

Talking of which, caramel shortbread, eh? Sounds delicious. Is that in the shops or did you make it yourself, Corrosive?

Thanks again folks - onward and upward!

Corrosive
10-20-2011, 10:56 AM
Talking of which, caramel shortbread, eh? Sounds delicious. Is that in the shops or did you make it yourself, Corrosive?



Like I have time to make cakes! They do a tub of them at Asda (and you can get brownies too) 2 for 3