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Interstellar Icon
06-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Hi All,

I'm doing a website redesign for a client, and since I'm pretty new to web design, it's probably going to take me awhile to complete all the pages. The current site has 15-20 pages, and many of them have embedded flash files, embedded audio/video files, .pdf files, etc. I quoted a timeframe of 30 days to complete the redesign, and my client asked if we could do the redesign as a work-in-progress, i.e. publish new pages as they are completed. This would mean that both new and old pages would be live on the site until the redesign is completed.

I'm just wondering if any of you have encountered this type of request before, and what you think the best course of action would be. The new design is starkly different than the old (I can provide samples if desired), so there wouldn't be much continuity - but I also want to honor my clients request, and do what I can to accommodate it.

Thanks in advance, and any input will be appreciated. :-D

Sam

davidj
06-05-2008, 10:57 PM
I would try and talk them out of this but at the end of the day your getting paid so you have to do as requested. The best one i heard was a mate had designed a site and it was bling, really nice. Upon completion and go live the client turned to my mate and asked him to include a rotating envelope he found and ripped from another site! Nightmare but what could he do.

you have agree'd a time scale so i would sugest you talk to your client and ask them if you can go live in one go at the end of the term. If you say something like.... "By going live in one go will keep the costs down" all the client sees at this point is extra $$$ and you might get away with it

Corrosive
06-06-2008, 07:13 AM
Sam

I can't see the benefit to your client in going live bit by bit. It will look a mess and you'd be better off launching the whole re-design in one go. Also it gives you no chances for 'snagging' and for the client to agree aspects of the design before they are on the web. Davidj is right, you should use your powers of persuasion to talk your client out of this course of action. Suggest a 'relaunch' day and they can make a big song and dance of 'new website coming soon' and maybe tie in a marketing campaign to accompany the relaunch. Jeez, it's only 30 days to wait after all! :roll:

Interstellar Icon
06-06-2008, 08:57 AM
Thanks guys! You both have basically confirmed my hunch that it's not a good way to go, so I'll try to relay that in a user-friendly way. ;-) I'm thinking about suggesting that we relaunch with a "no frills" website, i.e. only the essential pages, basic text and images, etc., and then add everything else after launch.

I'll let you know how it goes, and I'll probably post the site here for review/feedback, as well.

Thanks again,
Sam

Corrosive
06-06-2008, 10:12 AM
No problem Sam. Don't forget that although 'the customer is always right' you can manage their expectations and they have employed you as an expert and they should listen to your advice as such.

Good luck 8-)

By the way, do you have a URL for the old site? Would be interested in what you are going to re-create.

Interstellar Icon
06-06-2008, 07:33 PM
By the way, do you have a URL for the old site? Would be interested in what you are going to re-create.

You can view the existing site here: http://www.lccny.com/.

Here's the comp of the new design:


http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/DesignDude/lcc_index_v11_proof6-04.jpg

If you (or anyone) has any suggestions toward improving upon the new design, please feel free to provide input. :grin:

Thanks,
Sam

davidj
06-06-2008, 07:35 PM
a nice improvement

Corrosive
06-07-2008, 07:05 AM
Yes, I agree. Yours is a much better design. Much less cluttered and I prefer the colours. Still smart but a bit less dark and old fashioned than the old one. You gonna build this one with CSS then Sam? Actually, you have a lot of drop shadows on there. Maybe too many?

Interstellar Icon
06-09-2008, 08:06 PM
Thanks again, guys! It's good to know that I'm moving in the right direction. :-D

Actually, you have a lot of drop shadows on there. Maybe too many?

Yeah, I'm like a kid in a candy store with Photoshop. :roll: Here's an updated comp:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/DesignDude/lcc_index_v12_proof6-09.jpg

Let me know what you think.


You gonna build this one with CSS then Sam?

Good question. My client has agreed to my expedited relaunch plan, which will require 10 redesigned pages (including only text, images, and links) by June 16th. He's going to be doing a lot of advertising for the Grand Opening of their swimming pool complex on June 29th, and he wants the new design to be live for any traffic he can drive to the site. (All in all, I suppose that's a good thing. :mrgreen:) I've begun review of the CSS tutorial that domedia turned me on to (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/css_concepts_cs3.html) (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/css_concepts_cs3.html%29), but I still have a ways to go. Is it realistic for me to be up-to-speed with a CSS-based site in this time frame, or am I better off going with tables and converting to CSS at a later date?

Thanks again for all of your help, and any additional input welcomed, as well...

Sam

domedia
06-09-2008, 08:23 PM
That page you have above is not very ahrd to do with CSS. But I imagine the inside pages have a more content focused design, right? Do you have a mockup of an inside page as well?

I could give you some hints/advice/help on making this CSS if you're interested.

Interstellar Icon
06-09-2008, 08:40 PM
That page you have above is not very ahrd to do with CSS. But I imagine the inside pages have a more content focused design, right? Do you have a mockup of an inside page as well?

I haven't done a mock up of any of the internal pages, but the content and images will be essentially the same as the current site - so it will be just a matter of incorporating them into the new design. After the Home page, here's the next page I plan to build: http://www.lccny.com/scorecard.html.

The other pages should be pretty similar to this one, as well. Let me know if you think it's realistic to do this expeditiously.

I could give you some hints/advice/help on making this CSS if you're interested.

That would be great! In building my previous sites with tables, I've discovered that setting up the Home (initial) page in Dreamweaver is the most time-consuming, and the remaining pages usually fall together pretty easily. Would this be the case with a CSS-based design, as well, or would the remaining pages require more time and effort?

Thanks again for all of your help... 8)

Sam

domedia
06-09-2008, 08:43 PM
It all depends on the inside page layout.
You would save yourself time, and make it easier for the usre imho, if you kept some consistency as far as the general layout goes :)

Interstellar Icon
06-09-2008, 08:49 PM
Yep, that's what I'm planning to do, so it sounds like it should play out pretty similarly to using tables.

Where should I start?

Corrosive
06-09-2008, 08:50 PM
Hi Sam

Prefer the new design. Remember you can't have drop shadows on EVERYTHING :grin: !! I would take Domedias offer of help with both hands if I were you. :wink:

domedia
06-09-2008, 09:03 PM
Yep, that's what I'm planning to do, so it sounds like it should play out pretty similarly to using tables.
uhm.. not really :)

Where should I start? Get approval on the mockups maybe? You need your development flow in place before you can begin the poject.

I'm pretty simple, it roughly goes like this:
1. Research on what client needs
2. design mockups approved by client.
3. Build out website.

Interstellar Icon
06-10-2008, 01:40 AM
uhm.. not really :)

Hopefully I'll understand the difference when I'm done with this site. ;-)

Get approval on the mockups maybe? You need your development flow in place before you can begin the poject.

I'm pretty simple, it roughly goes like this:
1. Research on what client needs
2. design mockups approved by client.
3. Build out website.

I'm on it. :)

Sam

Corrosive
06-10-2008, 07:23 AM
Get approval on the mockups maybe? You need your development flow in place before you can begin the poject.

I'm pretty simple, it roughly goes like this:
1. Research on what client needs
2. design mockups approved by client.
3. Build out website.

Hi Sam

Just to add that you need to understand why you are re-designing this site? Why is it indequate for the job the club need it to do at the moment and what you are going to do to improve it? Maybe speak to some club members and see what they want on there. Could you have a roll call of members/scores/holes in one? Do they want an on-line booking form for wedding/banquet enquiries? Do members want to see available teeing off times?

Once you have done your research then go to the client with your mock up designs, site map and solutions to the functionality they require and how it will integrate into the design you have. You MUST add value for your client.

There you go, there's my 'two cents worth' for today. :wink:

Interstellar Icon
06-11-2008, 03:55 AM
Hey Corrosive,

Thanks very much for taking the time to provide the info above - a lot of great stuff in there, and some things I don't think I would have thought of on my own.

Thanks for helping me improve my craft. 8)

Sam

Interstellar Icon
06-11-2008, 03:23 PM
I'm pretty simple, it roughly goes like this:
1. Research on what client needs
2. design mockups approved by client.
3. Build out website.

Update: I've designed mock ups for 8 of the 9 pages for this site, and all 8 have been approved by my client. I'm waiting to receive the necessary content on the 9th.

Please advise on the next step, and I'll plan on getting a head start on it while I'm waiting for the remaining content.

Thanks again for all of your help. :-D

Sam

domedia
06-11-2008, 04:46 PM
You'll have to slice out graphics needed for the site.. I'm not sure how you'll be able to achieve this.. are you using a client project as a way to learn this craft? :) How is your HTML/CSS skills?

Corrosive
06-11-2008, 05:12 PM
You'll have to slice out graphics needed for the site.. I'm not sure how you'll be able to achieve this.. are you using a client project as a way to learn this craft? :) How is your HTML/CSS skills?

Slicing graphics is tedious but imho that is the easy bit. The alchemy is in pulling it all together. To be fair to Sam he did his first site for a client as well. Table based, but not bad.

http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28002

domedia
06-11-2008, 06:08 PM
Slicing is easy.. knowing what to slice is not. The slices you need are determined by your markup.

Corrosive
06-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Slicing is easy.. knowing what to slice is not. The slices you need are determined by your markup.

Yes, that's true. I guess you need to fully understand both to have any idea what you are doing in either...if that makes any sense at all. :confused:

Interstellar Icon
06-12-2008, 12:16 AM
Hey Guys,

First of all, thanks so much for taking the time to work through all of this with me - I really appreciate it, and it is not taken for granted.

You'll have to slice out graphics needed for the site.. I'm not sure how you'll be able to achieve this.. are you using a client project as a way to learn this craft? :) How is your HTML/CSS skills?

I think what I'm really looking for is how to build a CSS-based site vs. a tables-based site. You had mentioned in an earlier post that you thought this site (Lancaster Country Club) would be pretty easy to build with CSS, based on my Index page mock-up, and offered to provide some "hints/advice/help" on building this as a CSS-based site. Based on the recent posts, I'm getting the impression that there may be a pretty significant learning curve associated with making this change. And I feel compelled to be honest: I know next to nothing about CSS, so if this is indeed the case, I've got a ways to go. :lol:

Based on my present circumstances, I'm beginning to think that it may be better to build this as a tables-based site and convert to CSS down the road. My client would like the initial version of the site to be live by Monday June 16. Given the choice between building this site with tables or CSS, I'd choose CSS. Given the choice between building it with CSS or launching on schedule, I'd choose launching on schedule. :wink:

Barring any additional input or suggestions from the Good People at Dreamweaver Club, I'll plan to learn CSS through the Adobe tutorials, and then post here when I have specific questions or need specific assistance. I wouldn't expect any of you to teach me CSS step-by-step, and the assistance I've already received is far greater than I expected. :grin:

Thanks again,
Sam

Corrosive
06-12-2008, 07:56 AM
Yes, probably best to go with what you know at this stage. That gives you 4 days to build a website! You know I said in an earlier post about managing customer expectations...

I develop, manage and implement new business projects for the legal department of a certain large motoring organisation in the UK and, tbh, I'd rather have a project delivered late, but all correct, than on time and not right. Picking up the pieces afterwards is more trouble than it is worth. That's just my opinion...and the opinion of my boss, and his boss and the MD ;-)

How have you ended up with such a tight deadline???

domedia
06-12-2008, 12:59 PM
I would do it right to start with.. but your time line is killing you.. Let's make sure you start learning web standards after this project :)

Interstellar Icon
06-12-2008, 05:29 PM
How have you ended up with such a tight deadline???

It's a timing issue, really - you can read the details in this post: http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139708&postcount=9

I'm sure it'll all work out, and hopefully I'll have some more time to work with on my next project.

I would do it right to start with.. but your time line is killing you.. Let's make sure you start learning web standards after this project :)

I certainly understand how you guys feel about this, and I really want to learn and understand web standards, so it's just a matter of making it happen. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions for you in the future, but I'm going to try and learn as much on my own as I can. :)

Sam

Interstellar Icon
06-18-2008, 04:02 AM
Hey All,

Just wanted to post a quick update: I've completed the relaunch for the LCC website (with tables), and we went Live yesterday. (You can view the new site at http://www.lccny.com.) I had a lot of challenges getting everything to line up with tables, so the sooner I learn CSS, the better! I've also completed the CSS tutorial on Adobe's website (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/css_concepts_cs3.html) (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/css_concepts_cs3.html%29), and I now have a better understanding of CSS and how it functions. I was thinking (hoping?) that it was a comprehensive tutorial, but there were things it didn't cover. For example, I know from looking at the code of CSS-based websites that there's a way to take a 1-pixel slice of a background image in Photoshop and use CSS to format it in Dreamweaver. (I believe domedia referred to it in this post: http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137192&postcount=3.)
This wasn't covered at all in the tutorial. I was able to find a tutorial covering this in a search of the Adobe website, but since I "don't know what I don't know", there may be other things that I'm missing, and wouldn't even know to search for.

If anyone knows of a comprehensive CSS resource, or has any ideas toward making sure I cover all the bases with the Adobe tutorials, please let me know. I really like the lynda.com (http://www.lynda.com) tutorials, but I'm now wondering if they're a good investment - I'd be interested in all of your input on this, as well.

Thanks again to all who've assisted, and I'm looking forward to being done with tables. Seriously. 8)

Sam

Corrosive
06-18-2008, 07:32 AM
http://browsershots.org/http://www.lccny.com/membership.html

Hi Sam

Think you've done really well again for a noob. If you want to view your design in a few different browser screen shots then click on the link above...save browsershots to your faves as well because you're going to need it when tackling CSS. Don't worry, it stacks up well and looks good :-D

Don't know if anyone else has any theories but I think CSS tutorials are good for research but you'll find it very hard to get a 'comprehensive guide' and you'll never remember it all anyway. Keep building sites and, as you come up against problems, you'll learn the CSS to overcome them.

The guys here seem to swear by Lynda.com. Not used them myself but I believe they are a good resource.

If you want my advice you should finish up the pages of the golf club site and start re-building it with CSS. This is the way to learn and then put it live when you are happy with it. Give yourself some breathing space this time though, lol. No more ten day deadlines!!!!!

domedia
06-18-2008, 01:48 PM
For example, I know from looking at the code of CSS-based websites that there's a way to take a 1-pixel slice of a background image in Photoshop and use CSS to format it in Dreamweaver. (I believe domedia referred to it in this post: http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137192&postcount=3.)
This wasn't covered at all in the tutorial.
Hi Sam great job on the website!

CSS is very flexible in the way that you can use it the way you like. If you have a vertical gradient as a background, you can slice a 1px vertical slice from it and apply like this:
background: url(bg.jpg) repeat-y
This is exactly what you should do on your website, get a hold on me on IM, GTalk or MSN if you need a better explanation. You;ll save bigtime on your background image size by doing it like this.

repeat-y = repeat the background no the y axis
repeat-x = repeat the background no the x axis
no-repeat = do not repeat the backgruond
(leave out) = reapets on x and y axis.

Maybe this is worth writing a tutorial on.. we haven't had a new tutorial on this site for ages.

davidj
06-18-2008, 04:10 PM
Slicing is easy.. knowing what to slice is not.


He he

This reminds me of a journalist who wrote, when reviewing an Eric Clapton gig.

"Its not the notes he plays that make him brilliant its the notes he doesn't play"!

Corrosive
06-18-2008, 04:30 PM
If you have a vertical gradient as a background, you can slice a 1px vertical slice from it and apply like this:
background: url(bg.jpg) repeat-y


This is absolutely genuine and I am not taking the p**s, but I have never thought of that :( . That's how you get a gradient, slice vertically! I am going to go and sit in the corner with a dunce hat on for a bit.

Please write more tuts as I clearly need help!!

Corrosive
06-18-2008, 04:36 PM
He he

This reminds me of a journalist who wrote, when reviewing an Eric Clapton gig.

"Its not the notes he plays that make him brilliant its the notes he doesn't play"!

Which comedian said something about playing the right notes, just in the wrong order??

Interstellar Icon
06-21-2008, 06:46 AM
http://browsershots.org/http://www.lccny.com/membership.html

Hi Sam

Think you've done really well again for a noob. If you want to view your design in a few different browser screen shots then click on the link above...save browsershots to your faves as well because you're going to need it when tackling CSS. Don't worry, it stacks up well and looks good :-D

Thanks for that...looks like a great resource! Do you typically check every page with it? And also, are there typically any specific browsers that you check, or do you usually check all of them? (There are some in there that I've never even heard of, so I thought I'd ask.)

Hi Sam great job on the website!

CSS is very flexible in the way that you can use it the way you like. If you have a vertical gradient as a background, you can slice a 1px vertical slice from it and apply like this:
background: url(bg.jpg) repeat-yThis is exactly what you should do on your website, get a hold on me on IM, GTalk or MSN if you need a better explanation. You;ll save bigtime on your background image size by doing it like this.

repeat-y = repeat the background no the y axis
repeat-x = repeat the background no the x axis
no-repeat = do not repeat the backgruond
(leave out) = reapets on x and y axis.

Maybe this is worth writing a tutorial on.. we haven't had a new tutorial on this site for ages.

Thanks for your feedback, and thanks (once again) for your offer to help. :) I'm going to try running through the Adobe tutorial, and then I'll get in touch if I have any questions. (Which I'm sure I will.) I'll keep an eye out for a tutorial on your site, as well...

Thanks again to all who have assisted. You guys rock. 8)

Sam

Corrosive
06-21-2008, 07:30 AM
Thanks for that...looks like a great resource! Do you typically check every page with it? And also, are there typically any specific browsers that you check, or do you usually check all of them? (There are some in there that I've never even heard of, so I thought I'd ask.)

Morning Sam (or maybe afternoon for you)

Browsershots is good and has been very helpful for me in the past but beware that, unless you pay for an account, you'll usualy only get a couple of pages viewed per day (fair enough really) so use them wisely. I check all the browsers it has selected when you load the home page up but you will need to decide on which ones you can ignore. Suggest you do some research on browsers and usage.

Rob_Che
06-24-2008, 08:38 PM
Which comedian said something about playing the right notes, just in the wrong order??

The one and only Eric Morambe. Leg. End.
When he was showing Andrew preview how to play piano :)

edbr
06-25-2008, 03:32 AM
well remembered rob! my favourite (but pointless) quote was Earl Scruggs "aint no notes on a banjo,just a lot of places to put your fingers"

Corrosive
06-25-2008, 11:16 AM
The one and only Eric Morambe. Leg. End.
When he was showing Andrew preview how to play piano :)

Yes, that's the one Rob! Genius

Interstellar Icon
09-26-2008, 11:48 PM
Hey All,

Remember me? Yep, I'm still alive and kickin', and trying to get a handle on CSS. I posted a new thread with a CSS question (http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28963) (http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28963%29), and I thought I'd post here too to let you all know, in case you may have some input. Feel free to lay it all on me if you do... :-D

Thanks,
Sam

PS This is the first time I've seen the new Member Ranks. I likey. 8)

Corrosive
09-28-2008, 05:36 PM
Hey All,

Remember me? Yep, I'm still alive and kickin', and trying to get a handle on CSS. I posted a new thread with a CSS question (http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28963) (http://www.dreamweaverclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28963%29), and I thought I'd post here too to let you all know, in case you may have some input. Feel free to lay it all on me if you do... :-D

Thanks,
Sam

PS This is the first time I've seen the new Member Ranks. I likey. 8)

Welcome back Sam. Good luck with learning CSS. You will never go back to tables.

Interstellar Icon
09-29-2008, 05:31 AM
Welcome back Sam. Good luck with learning CSS. You will never go back to tables.

Hey Corrosive,

Good to hear from you, and thanks for your good luck wishes - I'm sure I'll need 'em. :lol: Now that I have a fair amount of experience with tables, however, I'm looking forward to being up-to-speed with CSS - anything would have to be less frustrating than working with tables for layout. :grin:

Sam